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Thread: Coach’s mid-term grades.

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    No dice.

    2.5 more per punt Net in Wile's favor
    More punts inside the 20, once again Wile is better
    We saw the difference in leg strength and hang time in the preseason. Wile was better once again
    And did we forget to note that Wile is about 1 million dollars cheaper on the cap? Wile > Berry again.

    Call this " better ", or slight improvement if you must. Berry's leg tends to weaken a bit later in the season.

    The bottom line: It was the wrong call by Tomlin on who to keep. As for drafting a punter, I think we missed out on a pro bowl level guy in round five.
    Oh bullshit on "better". Margins like that on that stat do not mean "better". It is, simply, not significant enough of a difference to make that distinction. Technically, higher, but not, necessarily, "better". This is why no one took your stupid assed bet, because you make distractions that arent.

    You said that magnificent hang time, which might be better, but i haven't seen measures, would result in more fair catches. Ive demonstrated Wile has less FC on more punts.

    You will notice that i, specifically, did not mention cost. This was purposefully done as i was discussing your dumbass conclusion as to "better".

    If my punter kicks from the opponent's 45 and drops it inside the 20, and your punter punts from their own 45 and it ends up inside the 20, which is "better". Based on your stats analysis, your punter is "better". The problem is, the stat doesn't tell the whole story.

  2. #42
    Since Burns' ass met the pine there is only one player on this team who has serious importance whos play is below the line. Boswell. I still have zero confidence in his ability to kick a game winner and he keeps missing right.

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  3. #43
    Time 4 Real Football!!!
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    Punting from the 50, a 40 yard punt is better than a 50 yard punt. There is your difference in punting for distance.

    Blake played CB, not S. Better comparison is Mitchell last year.

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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Punting from the 50, a 40 yard punt is better than a 50 yard punt. There is your difference in punting for distance.

    Blake played CB, not S. Better comparison is Mitchell last year.
    Stats play a role as they are quantified. But if you just watch the games you get a pretty good feel for who is playing well.

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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerSask View Post
    Stats play a role as they are quantified. But if you just watch the games you get a pretty good feel for who is playing well.
    But, sometimes, you only see things that reinforces the opinions you already have.

    Sometimes, you get a perception that something it true, when it is not. For instance, a guy might get a FS a couple times in a game. Several games later, he gets a couple more. You remember the other game and percieve him as an issue. However, when look back, you realize those were his only 4 penalties over a large # of games.

    You might percieve one player is "better " than the other, but be wrong.

  6. #46
    Coach you didn't grade your fellow coach Tomlin. He plays a vital role in the outcome of Steeler games. His decisions are the difference between winning and losing.
    I think he's turned it around these last 4 games. He was awful at the beginning of the season.

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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    While I do think that Davis is playing a bit better thisyear ( and is not a weak link like say Blake was ) , this thread will examine where he rates among his peers on defense. Maybe I am too hard on the guy? I do think he’s making less mistakes this year.


    Let’s let the data rule and see.

    One of the best things about playing safety according to noless authority than Rod Woodson is your in on a lot of plays and cannot be takenout of the game.

    Outside of being tacklinga receiver who has already open and caught the football, what type of splashplays does he offer?

    Let’s examine the NFL stats, which none of us control and see:


    Splash plays:



    Pass defensed. 3 for the year for Davis. The trouble is 100 other players in the NFL are better in this department and over 33 NFL players have 6 or more. This is a low amount and shows QB’s can throw on Davis with little fear of the pass being broken up.

    Interceptions. 0 for Davis. Over 90 NFL players have one ormore

    Forced Fumbles. 0 for Davis. 64 players have one or more.

    Tackles. 39 for Davis. This is okay and only slightly behind last year pace. 97players have more tackles. Of course a tackle by itself is not a splash play, but I thought it was relevant for the conversation.

    Sacks. 0 for Davis. 100 players have more. To be fair to Davis he seldom blitzes.

    Tackles for losses. 0 for Davis. 76 players have 4 or more


    Other numerical observations:

    The Steelers have one of the best pass rushes in football ( tied for 3rd ), in theory most DB's should benefit.

    Davis is 3rd on the team with missed tackles at 8 for the year. Where this would rate among NFL defensive players is unknown, but I guess it would be on the high side.

    For the season, Davis only has two penalties accepted, both of which were for 15 yards. Not bad considering the ref's these day.


    ** I do not have data on TD' given up or total yardage surrender in coverage but they would be very interesting **
    Just for reference, what does your bible site (PFF) rate Davis at the moment for safeties.

    Also, try to paste correctly from one medium to the next. Black fonts works best on white contrast.


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  8. #48
    I give Coach an A.

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ark steel View Post
    But, sometimes, you only see things that reinforces the opinions you already have.

    Sometimes, you get a perception that something it true, when it is not. For instance, a guy might get a FS a couple times in a game. Several games later, he gets a couple more. You remember the other game and percieve him as an issue. However, when look back, you realize those were his only 4 penalties over a large # of games.

    You might percieve one player is "better " than the other, but be wrong.
    There are some stats that are pretty clear. Yards per carry. Yards per catch. Touchdown to Int. Then there is all this deep analytics. I think a lot of that goes too far. In a game like baseball it's one thing. But for football to me the eye test is what matters the most. For example what Coach has to say about Davis. I'm watching the games and can see for myself. You can offer all the stats you want. I have one of my own. When it was Davis and Mitchell the Steelers were getting torched up the middle. Now they are not. I also see the guy play every Sunday and he looks pretty fuckin solid. Not everyone is a superstar. Davis wont get Polamalu money. He will get solid money cause he's a very solid player.
    Last edited by SteelerSask; 11-08-2018 at 12:10 AM.

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewey View Post
    Coach you didn't grade your fellow coach Tomlin. He plays a vital role in the outcome of Steeler games. His decisions are the difference between winning and losing.
    I think he's turned it around these last 4 games. He was awful at the beginning of the season.

    B- for The Tomlin man. . He does not impress or understand football. He's reactive to mistakes. How about putting the players in positon to win sooner? His judgement on when to throw the red flag has been very poor, and he has clashed with officials and been fined. The slow start was due to guys not being ready to play. He's lucky the Steelers have some other good coaches around him ( Munchak, Fichtner ) and a good GM that has given him good players. The B- is due to the team record.

    And on that note

    Fitchner - A - I like him
    Butler B- Defese is coming around.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike Kelly View Post
    Just for reference, what does your bible site (PFF) rate Davis at the moment for safeties.

    Also, try to paste correctly from one medium to the next. Black fonts works best on white contrast.


    Sent from my iPad using Steeler Nation mobile app

    Ike,

    These are my grades. As such I'm not going to use a 3rd party opinion as part of my grading systems.

    For whatever reason, this forum has issues with my copy and paste.

    Davis just isn't making many plays. Is he assignment sound? Yes. Does he make impactful splash plays? Very few.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ark steel View Post
    Oh bullshit on "better". Margins like that on that stat do not mean "better". It is, simply, not significant enough of a difference to make that distinction. Technically, higher, but not, necessarily, "better". This is why no one took your stupid assed bet, because you make distractions that arent.

    You said that magnificent hang time, which might be better, but i haven't seen measures, would result in more fair catches. Ive demonstrated Wile has less FC on more punts.

    You will notice that i, specifically, did not mention cost. This was purposefully done as i was discussing your dumbass conclusion as to "better".

    If my punter kicks from the opponent's 45 and drops it inside the 20, and your punter punts from their own 45 and it ends up inside the 20, which is "better". Based on your stats analysis, your punter is "better". The problem is, the stat doesn't tell the whole story.
    Who did you think was better in the pre-season? Please reply.

    Why does Wile have better numbers in the NFL season?

    You not telling the whole story, rather your hiding behind it. If you have details to add that are not made up, I'll read them. I just wish I had access to hang time as Wile is better based on what I have seen.


    2.5 more per punt Net in Wile's favor
    More punts inside the 20, once again Wile is better
    We saw the difference in leg strength and hang time in the preseason. Wile was better once again
    And did we forget to note that Wile is about 1 million dollars cheaper on the cap? Wile > Berry again.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Ike,

    These are my grades. As such I'm not going to use a 3rd party opinion as part of my grading systems.

    For whatever reason, this forum has issues with my copy and paste.

    Davis just isn't making many plays. Is he assignment sound? Yes. Does he make impactful splash plays? Very few.
    Just make sure you give credit to whomever you are um "borrowing" an opinion.

    As if not it comes across as plagiarism.
    She said, "Love me, " so I love her
    She said, "Leave me, " so I left
    Then I went to Pittsburgh
    And I ain't never comin' back

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolieMan View Post
    those who don't watch games can only judge players based on stats....or what others have written about the player
    Please do participate in the game day thread, you see lots of posters know what is going on. I play along, often suggesting things we miss out on, or saying when something good happens . Proof I watch the games.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Please do participate in the game day thread, you see lots of posters know what is going on. I play along, often suggesting things we miss out on, or saying when something good happens . Proof I watch the games.
    game day thread is just full of people bitching about how much the team sucks....until they pull out the win and then they shut up....

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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Who did you think was better in the pre-season? Please reply.
    I already showed you why it appeared Wile was doing better in preseason, at least, according to the stat you wanted to use. You ignored it. He didn't have one (or maybe he did have just one) punt from inside the opponent's territory in preseason. I assume he has this season, but I haven't gone to look at all 40 punts.

    YOU said his hang time would result in more FC than Berry. Maybe it did in preseason, but we are playing (well, THEY are) real football now when it matters. He has more 3 more punts and 2 less FC's. That, specficially, disproves the point you were trying to make about the difference in hang time. I would point out, again, though, I don't think a 2 FC difference is significant enough to hang anyone's hat on.

    I don't consider pre-season results to be big-boy football.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Why does Wile have better numbers in the NFL season?
    Those stats don't tell the whole story as to "better". Those stats are so marginally "better" the idea that you are trying to hang your hat on it is ridiculous. Again, why no one would take your dumbass bet. You think 2.5 yards on a stat that isn't a complete story is "better:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    You not telling the whole story, rather your hiding behind it. If you have details to add that are not made up, I'll read them.
    It is laughable that you think I am not telling the whole story. I even noted, that I didn't look at all 40ish punts by each guy. You think those stats tell the whole story (they don't) and, worse, you think the difference in the stats is significant enough to form a conclusion (they do not appear that way to me). Maybe, just maybe, someone thinks 2.5 more yards per put and slightly more (what was it 2?) inside the 20 is significant. I doubt it, though.

    I will, again, ask you a question. Punter A kicks from the opponent's 40 to the 10 yard line. No return. Punter B kicks from his own 40 to the opponent's 10 yard line. No return Punter A has a 30 yard punt and punter B has a 50 yard punt. Both have 100% of their punts inside the 20 and neither have a punt returned.

    You'd think Punter B is better because you don't know where the punter kicked from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    I just wish I had access to hang time as Wile is better based on what I have seen.
    He might very well have better hang time. Your theory that this would result in more FC and less return yards does make sense. It has failed, in this instance, as you can see that there are not more FC's. Wile even has less with more punts! In general, I would expect the hang time to produce more FC and if we had the HT for all punters, i think this would follow through.o

    Your theory on the return yards, while seeming to follow logically, does not because it includes more than just what the punter does. What about what happens if you include when the guy does catch they ball. I will give you an exact instance you would have seen in the KC game, if you watched it. Berry puts a kick (short, I think), but perfectly on the sideline which should have voided any chance at a return. A steeler defender was RIGHT FUCKING THERE
    Last edited by ark steel; 11-08-2018 at 12:37 PM.

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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    Ike,

    These are my grades. As such I'm not going to use a 3rd party opinion as part of my grading systems.

    For whatever reason, this forum has issues with my copy and paste.

    Davis just isn't making many plays. Is he assignment sound? Yes. Does he make impactful splash plays? Very few.
    Fine they are your grades. You are entitled to them. But your conclusions are all over the place.

    Davis isn’t making plays in your opinion. Yet you say his play is assignment sound. He’s one of the leaders in tackles behind the ILBs. Because he’s assignment sound. You won’t get opportunities for picks or PDs if you don’t have balls thrown your way. Which has been the case. Look at his thrown to/catch ratio. He’s not getting many QBs to challenging him because why....? He’s assignment sound.

    On Tomlin, you grade him a B but state all the reasons why he shouldn’t be a B. He’s either a B or not, rating him through the play of his assistants isn’t grading Tomlin. It’s grading the Coaching staff. You say Butler is doing better, but previously said Tomlin had his hands all in the defense. So which is it? Your conclusions don’t fit even your own narratives.

    I’ll pass on the punting, because....it’s a Punter. You want to peacock over a 5th round pick for a team probably not making the playoffs ....go ahead.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerSask View Post
    Stats play a role as they are quantified. But if you just watch the games you get a pretty good feel for who is playing well.
    I take it well all saw Berry last night. Mickey Mouse could have punted that one better. He's below average as a punter, and as I fan I want to replace those type players,
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Stick to offense Coach, those assessments are accurate. You're not as schooled on D or ST for that matter. Berry started at a D but he's a solid B now.

    Canaday, you want to know if your LS is doing their job? They don't fuck up, and they don't let up blocked kicks. He's done neither. Mr Perfect who knocked out our drafted LS is an A+, because that is the grade for perfection.
    Cope,

    I saw a bad snap long snap last night. Our long snapper is hardly Mr. Perfect. I get it 99% of the time the long snapper doesn't matter. Our guy to me average and can add more to kick coverage.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike Kelly View Post
    Fine they are your grades. You are entitled to them. But your conclusions are all over the place.

    Davis isn’t making plays in your opinion. Yet you say his play is assignment sound. He’s one of the leaders in tackles behind the ILBs. Because he’s assignment sound. You won’t get opportunities for picks or PDs if you don’t have balls thrown your way. Which has been the case. Look at his thrown to/catch ratio. He’s not getting many QBs to challenging him because why....? He’s assignment sound.

    On Tomlin, you grade him a B but state all the reasons why he shouldn’t be a B. He’s either a B or not, rating him through the play of his assistants isn’t grading Tomlin. It’s grading the Coaching staff. You say Butler is doing better, but previously said Tomlin had his hands all in the defense. So which is it? Your conclusions don’t fit even your own narratives.

    I’ll pass on the punting, because....it’s a Punter. You want to peacock over a 5th round pick for a team probably not making the playoffs ....go ahead.

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    Ike,

    As I said before please read and quote me correctly. I gave Tomlin a B- , not a B

    B- for The Tomlin man. . He does not impress or understand football. He's reactive to mistakes. How about putting the players in positon to win sooner? His judgement on when to throw the red flag has been very poor, and he has clashed with officials and been fined. The slow start was due to guys not being ready to play. He's lucky the Steelers have some other good coaches around him ( Munchak, Fichtner ) and a good GM that has given him good players. The B- is due to the team record.
    Tomlin has very good talent around him. The team is now 6-2-1. But the above points I made stand. He was foolish enough to stick with Todd Haley for years! Please tell me why?

    I'm the type of fan who doesn't want the Steelers to settle for mediocrity, especially at the important spots. I'm not saying Tomlin is the worst coach in the NFL, he's average. If he was 6-2 in his last eight playoff games ,and made adjustments quicker, I'd be in his corner. But as you can see he's 3-6 in his nine playoff games. That is tough to tolerate.

    But as we see he's still doesn't get it. Williams and Bostic should not be in coverage assignments. WTF. And why those 2 DL deployments on defense. Carolina, if they didn't fall way behind could have gashed us with the Run. Our ILB's made McCaffery look like an All Pro last night.

    What Grade would you give Tomlin, I'm curious.

    As for Davis, he's assignment sound because he says back, and closes on the ball once the pass is complete. ALL Safeties should have a lot of tackles Ike. If you want me to show you that Davis is below average in terms of total tackles relative to the other starting safeties I can show you this!. It doesn't matter, you reject basic facts often. Davis ball skills and man coverage skill are not very good. It was an easy night for the DB's as Carolina's OL could not deal with our pass rush.

    You know I'm correct about the punter. No need to comment further there.
    Last edited by Coach; 11-09-2018 at 10:22 AM.
    Tomlin is 3-5 in his last eight playoff games, 3-6 if you include the Super Bowl loss to the Packers. He has won a playoff game in just 4 of his 11 seasons, and most of those came early.

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