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Thread: The Coronavirus thread

  1. #3361
    Member SteelerInLebanon's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Steelersfan View Post
    Then you are naive. Vader's already called you out on your lack of use of science. I gave you scientific studies that pointed to evidence of these deaths happening during economic downturns. You want to ignore them because of your bias on this topic. People will die due to suicide, lack of health care coverage, drug addictions, heart attacks and hunger.

    I'll take you dismissing it as you don't care.

    Yet, you will spew about information that 'millions could die!' when there is no scientific evidence to suggest that will happen.

    Therefore a rational discussion can't ensue.

    You can keep peppering me with questions and I'll answer like OFTB did. When you answer mine.

    At this point you don't want to have a discussion, you want to lecture.

    We all get your points dude. As much as many of us disagree with them.
    Damn it Tim, I never said millions will die. I said it could have happened if we did nothing. We didn't do nothing thank god. If you look I answered Vader in a separate post.

    I get your points I really do. But looking at it from the perspective of having two people intricately involved in this hands on and with first hand knowledge I have a different view point. i am not trying to be doom and gloom I honestly want to know what you would have done differently it is a simple yet complex question. But I think it would be an interesting discussion to have. I am not trying to belittle you or saying I have all the answers. I am a little personally involved and get a bit emotional on this. Please don't take it personally, talking this shit out is therapy for me in a way.

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  2. #3362
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerInLebanon View Post
    Here is where I think we messed up and it is not entirely our fault. We at first trusted what the WHO was telling us about his and it appears they were either lying or just parroting what China was telling them to say. Had we truly known earlier we would be in at least a little better state PPE wise but China and the WHO fucked us over. Look at how far into this they were still down playing it and even saying it did not spread human to human.
    Yet reason #65528282 why trump must win again. Time to cut the fat.

  3. #3363
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerInLebanon View Post
    Damn it Tim, I never said millions will die. I said it could have happened if we did nothing. We didn't do nothing thank god. If you look I answered Vader in a separate post.

    I get your points I really do. But looking at it from the perspective of having two people intricately involved in this hands on and with first hand knowledge I have a different view point. i am not trying to be doom and gloom I honestly want to know what you would have done differently it is a simple yet complex question. But I think it would be an interesting discussion to have. I am not trying to belittle you or saying I have all the answers. I am a little personally involved and get a bit emotional on this. Please don't take it personally, talking this shit out is therapy for me in a way.
    Should I? Yeah I will. Imma stick my toe in.


    I’m involved heavily. As stated many times I work for nursing home company. Can’t express the volumn of my work that has increased. But it’s all for those proving care and my residents so worth it.

    We have had cases, resident and staff. We have had residents that have passed. My wife aunt in her center passed today. So what I’m about to say is not made with trying to make light of any of this.

    The numbers aren’t that bad considering. Are we stressed to the MAX for PPE and staffing? Ducking-A right. (Fuck it tired of fixing auto correct). But again, given my work, the folks in my centers, it’s an uptick to flu season. Yes yes. Stop the comparison. But it’s math. I pray it doesn’t spike. I just don’t see it first hand

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  4. #3364
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerInLebanon View Post
    Damn it Tim, I never said millions will die. I said it could have happened if we did nothing. We didn't do nothing thank god. If you look I answered Vader in a separate post.

    I get your points I really do. But looking at it from the perspective of having two people intricately involved in this hands on and with first hand knowledge I have a different view point. i am not trying to be doom and gloom I honestly want to know what you would have done differently it is a simple yet complex question. But I think it would be an interesting discussion to have. I am not trying to belittle you or saying I have all the answers. I am a little personally involved and get a bit emotional on this. Please don't take it personally, talking this shit out is therapy for me in a way.
    And where you get the idea I would have done anything differently is beyond me. You're presuming, much like Trog does.

    If you've noticed I have issue with the length of this shut down. Not THE shutdown. A shutdown was necessary. There's your answer. Happpy?

    Now kindly stop dismissing me and go back and answer my questions.

    And I'll stand by this...the cure is going to be worse and kill more than CV19 will in 2020. We can bet on it. You can copy this and remind me of it later. I'll take that bet to Vegas and wager everything I have.

  5. #3365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Steelersfan View Post
    And where you get the idea I would have done anything differently is beyond me. You're presuming, much like Trog does.

    If you've noticed I have issue with the length of this shut down. Not THE shutdown. A shutdown was necessary. There's your answer. Happpy?

    Now kindly stop dismissing me and go back and answer my questions.

    And I'll stand by this...the cure is going to be worse and kill more than CV19 will in 2020. We can bet on it. You can copy this and remind me of it later. I'll take that bet to Vegas and wager everything I have.
    The length of it is the great unknown. I thought I had answered them at least to a degree. Look I am sorry but the it is hard to tell with the tone you seem to take about this so I apologize yes I was assuming incorrectly that you while you are abiding by the shutdown you disagreed with it. It is a little hard to tell with the tone. Trog being who he is would have an even tougher time figuring it out. I will admit my mistake on that. I was Social Sciences/ Political Sciences guy in college. I get those studies on the effects of unemployment but I don't know if they correlate directly to a situation like this. It will be an important case study to do as we are in fairly uncharted territory with this type of sudden unexpected and hopefully short term unemployment. You could be right or we could also see something entirely different considering the circumstances. I am bit of an optimist by nature on humanities ability to overcome extreme circumstances versus a slow boil recession.

  6. #3366
    Lul. Length you say. I always tell them ima grower. But the Irish in my says otherwise. Lol.

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  7. #3367
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerInLebanon View Post
    The length of it is the great unknown. I thought I had answered them at least to a degree. Look I am sorry but the it is hard to tell with the tone you seem to take about this so I apologize yes I was assuming incorrectly that you while you are abiding by the shutdown you disagreed with it. It is a little hard to tell with the tone. Trog being who he is would have an even tougher time figuring it out. I will admit my mistake on that. I was Social Sciences/ Political Sciences guy in college. I get those studies on the effects of unemployment but I don't know if they correlate directly to a situation like this. It will be an important case study to do as we are in fairly uncharted territory with this type of sudden unexpected and hopefully short term unemployment. You could be right or we could also see something entirely different considering the circumstances. I am bit of an optimist by nature on humanities ability to overcome extreme circumstances versus a slow boil recession.
    I'll say it again...anyone who thinks this lengthy shut down won't lead to countless human deaths is being naive. That's a generalized comment, not directed specifically at you. And it only takes common sense if you think about it.

    The #1 reason couples argue? Money. People (yearly to the tunes of tens of thousands) kill themselves, often due to hopelessness. What is one of the main reasons? Lack of money. I have a friend who's father hanged himself so his family could get his life insurance money (no suicide clause in it) because he could no longer provide for them.

    People will commit suicide.

    Crimes and robbery will increase. Southern Italy already has riots and looting because of the shut down. As someone else said in this thread about his grandfather or father....things change when people get hungry. Oh...people are gonna be really hungry. 6.6 million laid off in one week? It's going to get ugly. Crimes will rise as people struggle. There will be homicides due to this.

    The stress of no job for who knows how long will induce heart attacks, drug addictions, alcoholism. To say it won't is living in a bubble.

    The repercussions of this on the human being is going to be worse and worse the longer this goes.

    Some states and even the government are now talking about MONTHS. Hell today they are debating whether the NFL season will start on time.

    I appreciate you are personally in this, and I pray for the safety of your loved ones. But it's really upon us all to consider the whole. We move on with our lives when 80,000 people succumb to the flu. We are at the point where we need to start moving on and consider those people below the poverty line who need to eat, those middle income class people who are being pushed below the poverty line, those who are ill who need health insurance and countless more. This is materially affecting them. Many will die because of this.

    And none of this considers what happens to our nation, our sovereignty, our debt, our ability to defend ourselves, and so much more.

    Sorry but anyone saying this is necessary while ignoring the ramifications that are going to hit us hard as hell in the coming months is either selfish, naive, or politically driven.

    Beware the cure.

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  8. #3368
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcitysteelers View Post
    Lul. Length you say. I always tell them ima grower. But the Irish in my says otherwise. Lol.
    Ima grower LOL

    You sir win the internet today.

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  9. #3369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Steelersfan View Post
    I'll say it again...anyone who thinks this lengthy shut down won't lead to countless human deaths is being naive. That's a generalized comment, not directed specifically at you. And it only takes common sense if you think about it.

    The #1 reason couples argue? Money. People (yearly to the tunes of tens of thousands) kill themselves, often due to hopelessness. What is one of the main reasons? Lack of money. I have a friend who's father hanged himself so his family could get his life insurance money (no suicide clause in it) because he could no longer provide for them.

    People will commit suicide.

    Crimes and robbery will increase. Southern Italy already has riots and looting because of the shut down. As someone else said in this thread about his grandfather or father....things change when people get hungry. Oh...people are gonna be really hungry. 6.6 million laid off in one week? It's going to get ugly. Crimes will rise as people struggle. There will be homicides due to this.

    The stress of no job for who knows how long will induce heart attacks, drug addictions, alcoholism. To say it won't is living in a bubble.

    The repercussions of this on the human being is going to be worse and worse the longer this goes.

    Some states and even the government are now talking about MONTHS. Hell today they are debating whether the NFL season will start on time.

    I appreciate you are personally in this, and I pray for the safety of your loved ones. But it's really upon us all to consider the whole. We move on with our lives when 80,000 people succumb to the flu. We are at the point where we need to start moving on and consider those people below the poverty line who need to eat, those middle income class people who are being pushed below the poverty line, those who are ill who need health insurance and countless more. This is materially affecting them. Many will die because of this.

    And none of this considers what happens to our nation, our sovereignty, our debt, our ability to defend ourselves, and so much more.

    Sorry but anyone saying this is necessary while ignoring the ramifications that are going to hit us hard as hell in the coming months is either selfish, naive, or politically driven.

    Beware the cure.
    I get it. My only statement on it is this uncertain and uncharted. It could end up much better than you say because it is just a brief spike of unemployment or much worse if Trump loses and some numb nuts lefty gets in with both houses of Congress. I think coming out of this with Trump in charge will lead to a WW2 like period of growth in our manufacturing base as we bring home jobs from China and other places. If it isnít Trump and we get another full on globalist we are fucked. The Election is another variable to consider when talking mental health right now. If Trump does win as I expect the suicide rate on the left will probably spike.


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  10. #3370
    I read another statistic today that a large majority of people in the high risk group who are put on ventilators will die.

    Now, imagine your elderly parent or grandparent is 80, 85, 90 whatever. They have numerous underlying conditions. COPD, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure.

    They contract an aggressive form of cancer.

    You are told that they can do an aggressive regimen of chemo that will make their last days absolutely miserable but they will very likely die anyway. Oh, and during that time you are not allowed to be with them at all.

    The vast majority of people in that situation will say, hell no. We're going to go for quality of life and accept that life might be a few weeks or months or even years shorter.

    These kinds of end of life decisions are made regularly, every single day in this country.

    But for some reason for this particular illness, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who gets it must be put on a ventilator. No matter what their underlying conditions, no matter what their chances of survival, no matter what their age. And if they die we will count this as a dismal failure, of someone, somewhere. And of course if anyone makes one of these end of life decisions in this pandemic, it's terrible! Horrible! You are heartlessly letting grandma die! But in any other time, it's perfectly normal and acceptable.

    We have to start asking ourselves, why?

    This is not right. There is something really fucked up about this.
    Last edited by oneforthebus; Yesterday at 09:06 PM.

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  11. #3371
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerInLebanon View Post
    I get it. My only statement on it is this uncertain and uncharted. It could end up much better than you say because it is just a brief spike of unemployment or much worse if Trump loses and some numb nuts lefty gets in with both houses of Congress. I think coming out of this with Trump in charge will lead to a WW2 like period of growth in our manufacturing base as we bring home jobs from China and other places. If it isn’t Trump and we get another full on globalist we are fucked. The Election is another variable to consider when talking mental health right now. If Trump does win as I expect the suicide rate on the left will probably spike.


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    Only comment to that. Uncertain and unchartered shouldn't lead to us succumbing. Folding up like a house of cards. A little shut down I get. Longer? Not with the program.

  12. #3372
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneforthebus View Post
    I read another statistic today that a large majority of people in the high risk group who are put on ventilators will die.

    Now, imagine your elderly parent or grandparent is 80, 85, 90 whatever. They have numerous underlying conditions. COPD, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure.

    They contract an aggressive form of cancer.

    You are told that they can do an aggressive regimen of chemo that will make their last days absolutely miserable but they will very likely die anyway. Oh, and during that time you are not allowed to be with them at all.

    The vast majority of people in that situation will say, hell no. We're going to go for quality of life and accept that life might be a few weeks or months or even years shorter.

    These kinds of end of life decisions are made regularly, every single day in this country.

    But for some reason for this particular illness, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who gets it must be put on a ventilator. No matter what their underlying conditions, no matter what their chances of survival, no matter what their age. And if they die we will count this as a dismal failure, of someone, somewhere.

    We have to start asking ourselves, why?

    This is not right. There is something really fucked up about this.
    Requoted for truth. We are treating this differently than cancer, heart disease, the flu, Ebola, AIDS/HIV, SAR, MERS, etc and so forth. The question is why. I have my own theories.

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  13. #3373
    My grandmother was a breast cancer survivor and lifetime chain smoker. She died of respiratory failure in her 80s. There was never any talk of "let's put her on a ventilator for three weeks and see if we can save her". Everyone knew at her age and in her condition, a respiratory illness could kill her. She got pneumonia and respiratory failure and died peacefully and quietly after a nice day of spending time with her family.

    Yet for some reason that is no longer allowed.

    Why?

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  14. #3374
    Quote Originally Posted by oneforthebus View Post
    I read another statistic today that a large majority of people in the high risk group who are put on ventilators will die.

    Now, imagine your elderly parent or grandparent is 80, 85, 90 whatever. They have numerous underlying conditions. COPD, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure.

    They contract an aggressive form of cancer.

    You are told that they can do an aggressive regimen of chemo that will make their last days absolutely miserable but they will very likely die anyway. Oh, and during that time you are not allowed to be with them at all.

    The vast majority of people in that situation will say, hell no. We're going to go for quality of life and accept that life might be a few weeks or months or even years shorter.

    These kinds of end of life decisions are made regularly, every single day in this country.

    But for some reason for this particular illness, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who gets it must be put on a ventilator. No matter what their underlying conditions, no matter what their chances of survival, no matter what their age. And if they die we will count this as a dismal failure, of someone, somewhere. And of course if anyone makes one of these end of life decisions in this pandemic, it's terrible! Horrible! You are heartlessly letting grandma die! But in any other time, it's perfectly normal and acceptable.

    We have to start asking ourselves, why?

    This is not right. There is something really fucked up about this.
    My wife’s aunt who passed, they tried to put her in a vent. She was around 90, he husband just past of like 60 plus years. She wanted to see him. While not my side of family, I’m thinking that’s what she wanted.

    I’d love to see a poll of 70 plus us citizens and what they want. Do you fear this and want us to hide or do. You want to love the remaining days for however many they are.

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  15. #3375
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Fact check: Did the Obama administration deplete the federal stockpile of N95 masks?

    The claim: The Obama administration used and did not replenish the nation’s emergency stockpile of medical supplies, including N95 masks

    As the novel coronavirus pandemic strains health care systems, questions around the U.S. government's response have circulated in the media and online.

    On March 26, The Daily Wire published an article centering on the Obama administration’s role in using and allegedly failing to replenish the federal stockpile of N95 masks.

    “The Obama administration significantly depleted the federal stockpile of N95 respirator masks to deal with the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009 and never rebuilt the stockpile despite calls to do so,” the piece begins.

    USA TODAY investigation:US never spent enough on emergency stockpile, former managers say

    The article draws from the reporting of outlets including Bloomberg News and the Los Angeles Times. According to Bloomberg News, “after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn’t build back the supply.”

    “After the swine flu epidemic in 2009, a safety-equipment industry association and a federally sponsored task force both recommended that depleted supplies of N95 respirator masks, which filter out airborne particles, be replenished by the stockpile,” the Los Angeles Times reported.

    On Wednesday, President Donald Trump said during a press conference the country’s stockpile of personal protective equipment, including medical gear like N95 masks, is almost depleted.

    A history of the national emergency stockpile
    Established in 1999 to prepare the country for threats like pandemics, natural disasters and acts of bioterrorism, the United States has used and maintained its Strategic National Stockpile of medical supplies during times of acute crisis in the health care system.

    The reserve was originally named the National Pharmaceutical Stockpile, but was renamed during a 2003 restructuring when additional materials were added to the supply. The stockpile is jointly managed by the departments of Defense and Health and Human Services.

    While officials rarely discuss specifics about the reserve, like the exact locations and value of its contents, the fund's restocking contracts are largely public, including a July 2019 deal for vaccines valued at $1.5 billion.

    Warnings about the United States' lack of preparedness for a serious pandemic have come from both inside the federal government and elsewhere since at least the early 2000s and as recently as last year.

    “SARS has infected relatively few people nationwide, but it has raised concerns about preparedness for large-scale infectious disease outbreaks,” a 2003 analysis from the Government Accountability Office reads.

    HHS Secretary Alex Azar said in April 2019 the BioDefense Summit that a pandemic was among his top concerns, CNN reported on Friday. "Of course, the thing that people ask: 'What keeps you most up at night in the biodefense world?' Pandemic flu, of course. I think everyone in this room probably shares that concern," Azar told the summit. (His full remarks are available on the HHS website.)

    The stockpile has been used at least 13 times since its creation, including during the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks and 2001 anthrax attacks. Also during the George W. Bush administration, the national stockpile was deployed in response to hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005 and then again for Hurricanes Gustav and Ike in 2008, according to the stockpile's history published by the HHS.

    In 2005, the Bush administration published a report that urged investment in local and national stockpiles, increasing domestic production capacity and coordinating research efforts toward cures and vaccines. In 2006, Congress approved expanding the stockpile to include protective gear like N95 surgical masks.

    During the presidency of Barack Obama, the national stockpile was seriously taxed as the administration addressed multiple crises over eight years. About "75 percent of N95 respirators and 25 percent of face masks contained in the CDC's Strategic National Stockpile (∼100 million products) were deployed for use in health care settings over the course of the 2009 H1N1 pandemic response," according to a 2017 study in the journal Health Security.

    Again according to NIH, the stockpile's resources were also used during hurricanes Alex, Irene, Isaac and Sandy. Flooding in 2010 in North Dakota also called for stockpile funds to be deployed. The 2014 outbreaks of the ebola virus and botulism, as well as the 2016 outbreak of the zika virus, continued to significantly tax the stockpile with no serious effort from the Obama administration to replenish the fund.

    ProPublica reported on April 3 that congressional budget battles in the early years of the Obama administration contributed to stockpile shortages. But the article notes available funds were used not to replenish masks: "With limited resources, officials in charge of the stockpile tend to focus on buying lifesaving drugs from small biotechnology firms that would, in the absence of a government buyer, have no other market for their products, experts said. Masks and other protective equipment are in normal times widely available and thus may not have been prioritized for purchase, they said."

    During the presidency of Donald Trump, analysts have warned the United States is not prepared for a serious pandemic.

    'Gross misjudment':Experts say Trump's decision to disband pandemic team hindered coronavirus response

    “We assess that the United States and the world will remain vulnerable to the next flu pandemic or large scale outbreak of a contagious disease that could lead to massive rates of death and disability, severely affect the world economy, strain international resources, and increase calls on the United States for support,” the 2019 World Threat Assessment from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence states.

    The Trump administration has not taken significant steps to replenish the masks in the Strategic National Stockpile.

    Our rating: True
    We rate this claim TRUE because it is supported by our research. There is no indication that the Obama administration took significant steps to replenish the supply of N95 masks in the Strategic National Stockpile after it was depleted from repeated crises. Calls for action came from experts at the time concerned for the country’s ability to respond to future serious pandemics. Such recommendations were, for whatever reason, not heeded.

    Our fact-check sources:
    Department of Health and Human Services, Strategic National Stockpile: History
    Government Accountability Office, 2003 Report on Public Health Capacity
    Health Security, Personal Protective Equipment Supply Chain: Lessons Learned from Recent Public Health Emergency Responses
    Homeland Security Council, 2005 National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza
    National Institute of Health, The Strategic National Stockpile: Origin, Policy Foundations, and Federal Context
    2019 Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community

  16. #3376
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcitysteelers View Post
    Yeah I think there was a middle ground from doing nothing like the F word to closing the world down for the C word.

    An example I thought of. Schools. So each tier of school has what 3-4 grades. So letís say (thinking for my kid) Monday is grade 5. All children go into the large auditorium/cafeteria where they are distanced accordingly. Proper masks worn. All teachers of said grade work together and teach. Next day is 4th. Weds is deep clean. And so on. Itís something.

    Restaurants/bars. Similar model. Bar closed. Only tables. Every 3rd is open for people. Proper PPE.

    I think a model like this could apply to most biz.
    This would be unrealistic. You have kids coughing / sneezing / touching seats and what not all day. the virus will still be "alive" on those surfaces. As for bars and restaurants you cant wear proper PPE while eating / drinking. I Just dont think there any good answers. Luckily in my nursing home we have not had cases, but my GFs went from 1 to 15 cases in a week along with 20+ staff out either with it or in quarantine. That side of the building only has 45 residents and they basically have no staff on that side now. CNAs have to do housekeeping / maint / laundry because everyone is either sick or quit. Agency is not letting staffing come into the building and the home offered $54 / hr to agency staff. They offered my GF a $10 / hr hazardous pay raise to move offer there and she is still thinking it over. All the residents are suffering its just not possible for the CNAs to give them proper care. I am sure the country will recover and i am fine with the steps we are taking at this point.

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  17. #3377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Steelersfan View Post
    Requoted for truth. We are treating this differently than cancer, heart disease, the flu, Ebola, AIDS/HIV, SAR, MERS, etc and so forth. The question is why. I have my own theories.
    what are those theories?

  18. #3378
    Member Tim Steelersfan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar10213245 View Post
    what are those theories?
    Democrats used to extol, "If it saves just one life."

    After attempting to impeach the President, after attempting to "Russia" the President, after stating the moment they elected the President they would immediately begin to impeach him....they realized that only the economy tanking would give them a chance to remove him. Many openly and blatantly have wished for a recession so they can remove Trump. Both politicians and the MSM have wished for a recession so they have a chance in the election. They know they have no viable candidate. So they must tarnish him.

    Now you have a virus that hits the world.

    The MSM and the Democrats previously turned a hurricane - Katrina - into Bush's fault. Blamed the man for the people that died. Used it for political gain. Destroyed him over it.

    It's pretty apparent that they are milking this epidemic and they are calling for every shut down measure possible, supporting the shut downs and I believe are eager to see the job losses and the hit to the economy. They want the disaster so they can elect a Dem. They will blame Trump for every thing negative associated with it. Watch the pressers. Watch the entrapment questions they lob, one after the other, attempting to ensnare the man into saying something dumb. It's blatantly obvious.

    No, they didn't cause the virus. No, it's not a conspiracy. But by God they are blaming Trump for every single thing they can related to it. Hoping it serves an end to a means, replacing him. Thus every one of these deaths is far more important than an elderly person succumbing to the flu, cancer, diabetes, etc. Trump killed them. Because he didn't do enough to stop CV19.

  19. #3379
    i don't trust anybody in this situation. It seems everybody is working an angle, including the CDC. The CDC is going to use this to blow up their budget and gain more influence. You have all these Doctors running to cameras to see who can paint the best doomesday picture all hoping they land permanent TV gigs.

    You also see in this why Libs are so eager to take over healthcare. Just look at how easily you control people with it.

    These experts are now positioned so that no matter what happens, they will claim they were right. Huge death totals and they were right. Low death totals and they will claim that was only because of the lockdown and it would have been the end of the world if it hadn't been done.

    On a side note, with so much reduced traffic on the ground and air, surely we will see huge positive change in the climate, right? You know, since all those cars and plane and factories are causing climate change. With them all closed, we should absolutely see a huge difference.

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